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01.09.09 11:10

850 Postings, 5815 Tage myff@albay Link geht nicht.

01.09.09 11:15

947 Postings, 6389 Tage albayhast recht

ist ne pdf . hier funktioniert es . ich hab nichts verstanden.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090827000000000004.pdf
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Gruss Albay

01.09.09 11:46

850 Postings, 5815 Tage myff@PDF

Die Doks sind ja aus Nov 2008 und es handelt sich um die bis dahin aufgelaufene Gerichtskosten bzw. Anwaltskosten (also so ziemlich uninteressant). Korrigiert mich wenn ich falsch liege.  

01.09.09 11:58
1

161 Postings, 5934 Tage Hotstocker02an der OTC

gibt es keinen PRE Market  

01.09.09 12:14

947 Postings, 6389 Tage albayalle ami banken

im minus. ich glaube , heute geht es richtung sueden. oder der boden von 0,18$ hällt.
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Gruss Albay

01.09.09 12:14
1

5132 Postings, 6928 Tage enis21interessant ! aus w:o

Another Crackpot Theory?: German Connection


I try to just be a good drudge and limit myself to interpreting legal documents for ya'll, but today's huge volume got me to thinking, so let me speculate like (almost) everyone else . . .

See kevins1313 and stephenbenedict's thread at http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks... (Great detective work, guys.)

It shows that roughly 15% of all WAMUQ shares in the float traded today, with a full 2/3's trading on the various German exchanges. I have limited trading experience, so I'm not sure exactly what this means, but if I'm not mistaken this is the largest share volume trading day since the days after the seizure. It's been established elsewhere (couldn't find the links) that JPM has a significant presence in Germany, with subs and "friends". Could they be acquiring shares in anticipation of a settlement, but doing it mainly offshore to avoid suspicion and limit the run-up?

"But wait", you say, "what about the judge's ban on acquiring more than 4.75% of Q's and 4.50% of P's?"

So I went back and looked at that order (on kccllc, dated 11/07/08, dkt. #0243). It's entitled an "Interim Order", issued at WMI's request for the sole purpose of protecting the property value of NOLs and other "tax attributes" that belong to WMI from being lost by operation of IRS regulations and US tax laws. It doesn't absolutely prohibit transfers or sales over the proscribed percentage, it just gives WMI (subject to Court approval) veto power over them, and establishes a procedure whereby a substantial purchaser has to give 20-day notice to WMI, the Creditors' Committee and the Noteholder Group of an intended purchase, and those parties then have 15 days after filing of the notice with the court to file an objection to the purchase with the court. Violation of these procedures means that, as far as the BK court's jurisdiction goes, the transaction would be void "ab initio" (as if it never happened) and the violator could be sanctioned (i.e., fined) by the BK court. There are more details, but that's basically it.

So, first question (for Bop?): What jurisdiction does the bankruptcy court have in Germany anyhow? As far as I know, zero. There are attribution rules in the order which attribute to a holding company or individual any shares purchased by a subsidiary or other individual, whether by formal or informal agreement, on behalf of the holding company or individual, but how is Judge Walrath going to prove it and enforce that in Germany? What if it's the Chinese friends of Bonderman that are buying. What is she going to do about that?

More to the point, as part of a global settlement WMI, the Creditor's Committee and the Noteholders could agree with JPM not to exercise their veto and to waive the requirement of a giving and filing formal notice. This could permit JPM to acquire shares directly or through proxies on the open market, thereby cushioning the actual blow of any eventual settlement, because they would be, in part, paying themselves. Although the NOLs may thereby be lost to WMI, WMI doesn't have any profits to offset with NOLs anyhow (the NOLs only have value to a big acquirer with big profits to offset) AND as part of the global settlement WMI could concede to JPM the well disputed issue that the large bulk of the NOLs belong to WMB under the tax-sharing agreement anyhow, and that would further offset JPM's bottom-line cost to settle. I know it all sounds a bit underhanded, and perhaps it would run afoul of insider trading laws (in Germany?), but who knows, it might help settle the case.

Like I said, just another crackpot theory, but I say "Hold tight. Don't let them shake you out for 20 cents."

GLTA


_


Thanks Vivian for you thoughts.

I agree that BK court has no jurisdiction outside the US.

Re: "but how is Judge Walrath going to prove it and enforce that in Germany?" That's the rub. I learned early on that what the law says and the law in practice are widely divergent. The way I see something like that played out is after a global settlement, details come out about dirty dealing and reduced cost to JPM for the acquisition. At that point, WMI would be hard pressed to back away from a done deal, spend more time and money in court, etc., no matter how bad a taste it left in their mouths.

I think your cooperation scenario is more likely, given the amount of cooperation we have seen by WMI to date.

Interestingly, another poster makes a comment about the possibility of receiving a favorable tax letter from the IRS in connection with all the latest redacted billing.

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks...

Perhaps some of the redacted billing relates to wrangling with the IRS over NOLs and how share ownership and acquisition affects these NOLs.

We are all grasping at straws to explain the recent volume and PPS run-up. So I'll throw in my two cents.

For instance, perhaps the IRS has stated that shares acquired prior to an acquisition, or as part of a plan of acquisition (global settlement), and in the hands of a potential acquirer (JPM), do not affect the value of NOLs, either in the hands of the acquirer, or the target (WMI). Say perhaps that, if the plan of acquisition fails, the would-be acquirer could divest according to some timeline or something.

In any event, that would make the Interim Order without purpose, and open the door to cheap share acquisition - directly by JPM even, without hiding behind subsidiaries or backroom agreements or secret handshakes.

In addition, such a statement could make WMI a more attractive target instantly (not just to JPM), as it could remove risks associated with the NOL question.

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/...&rt=2&frt=2&off=1#-1
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An der Börse sind 2 mal 2 niemals 4, sondern 5 minus 1.
Man muß nur die Nerven haben, das minus 1 auszuhalten.

01.09.09 12:18
1

5132 Postings, 6928 Tage enis21desweiteren finde ich

interessant es gab seiner zeit ne menge interesse an wamu ! ..ist zwar alt aber die eröffnung der 2 konten bei wells fargo könnten auf eine verbindung hinweisen..reine gedanken..

Citigroup Inc., moving to take advantage of the turmoil that is hobbling banks throughout the U.S., is considering making a bid for Washington Mutual Inc., according to people familiar with the situation.

"People view us today as being a source of the solution, instead of part of the problem," Gary Crittenden, Citigroup's chief financial officer, said in an interview. He declined to comment specifically about WaMu.

Citigroup and several other banks are reviewing the Seattle thrift-holding company's books, which are packed with shaky mortgages, people familiar with the matter said Thursday. Other interested parties include Banco Santander SA, of Spain, and Wells Fargo & Co., of San Francisco. J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., which was spurned by WaMu earlier this year, is biding its time on a potential bid, people close to J.P. Morgan said.

Spokesmen for all those banks declined to comment.

Citigroup's interest in WaMu, which has branches across the U.S. but has struggled to build market share in many of the metropolitan areas it entered in recent years, comes just a few months after Citigroup was at the center of the credit crisis.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178369973654767.html
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An der Börse sind 2 mal 2 niemals 4, sondern 5 minus 1.
Man muß nur die Nerven haben, das minus 1 auszuhalten.

01.09.09 12:21

947 Postings, 6389 Tage albaygrüsse dich enis

wir kennen uns aus forsys forum. schon vor langer zeit hab ich dort alles verkauft. ich glaube bei citygroup waren wir beide gleichzeitig investiert . werde aber forsys im auge behalten. bald kann ich wieder einsteigen ( bei ca.1,80 euro ). wünsche dir alles gute.
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Gruss Albay

01.09.09 12:23

5132 Postings, 6928 Tage enis21grüß dich

ja liege dort auch auf der lauer !

bis später..
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An der Börse sind 2 mal 2 niemals 4, sondern 5 minus 1.
Man muß nur die Nerven haben, das minus 1 auszuhalten.

01.09.09 12:25
2

5132 Postings, 6928 Tage enis21.....

Frankfurt - 116MM shares up 49%
Stuttgart - 36.5MM shares up 82%

Looks to me like someone is trying to hide their purchases abroad or cover some large shorts.

_


If you add in Berlin and Munich, the volume in Germany was 159.47 million shares today. Add in the 89.86 million on the OTC, that totals 249.33 million shares traded today, or 14.67% of the total float of 1.7 billion shares. In one day. Hmmmm.....sure this is Lehman related?

I don't know what Germany traded on Friday, but with the US & German markets, we're probably looking at close to 18-20% of the total float traded in the last 2 days. Weird. Seems like something could be up.

_

15% of the float in one day, with 2/3's of the transactions in Germany, of all places? That is just bizarre. I'm a novice in the trading game, but that seems like WAY more than short covering or flippers could account for. Some whale is loading up, and the offshore tactic makes it smell like JPM or its back-scratching buddies.

Hmmmm.

_

If I was JPM and knew I had to settle, I'd sure grab as many cheap shares as possible. With the 4.75% of the float limit set by the court, maybe they've found a way to accumulate more overseas through....what? Subsidiaries? Companies they own a majority stake in? Hmmm. But if they knew a legit way to get more than 4.75%, they'd be stupid not to.

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/...4165&tof=18&frt=2#224165
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An der Börse sind 2 mal 2 niemals 4, sondern 5 minus 1.
Man muß nur die Nerven haben, das minus 1 auszuhalten.

01.09.09 12:39
2

500 Postings, 5917 Tage LuisdeFunesPrima jetzt gehts wieder abwärts

kann ich doch noch günstig einsteigen, bei 0,09 werde ich zuschlagen freu  

01.09.09 13:24
1

7960 Postings, 5959 Tage fatmamensehe ich auch so de funes

viele verkaufen zur sicherheit bis15.30 uhr und erhoffen sich das es wieder ansteigt.
falls es weiter abwärts geht haben die alles richtig gemacht.
im september wird es bestimmt noch des öfteren runter gehen.
gute chancen für trader ,harte zeiten für longies.

ich werd ab 0,10cent  nachkaufen,hab gestern kurz vor acht die hälfte für 0,129 verkauft.

gruß fat mama  

01.09.09 13:29

2518 Postings, 6009 Tage iceman78Gewinnmitnahmen im moderaten Umfang....

für heute hätte ich mir ein größeres Minus erwartet, freut mich, daß sie sich noch so schön halten....

heute wirds sicher wieder spannend, die amis sind gieriger als wir....

lg, ice  

01.09.09 13:39

269 Postings, 5836 Tage Freshjive78...

Bin davon ausgegangen, dass sich die Gewinnmitnahmen und die Neueinsteiger in der Waage halten... mal schauen wo es hingeht, wenn die Amis eröffnen... könnte mir gut vorstellen, dass es nach oben schnellt.
 

01.09.09 13:56
1

3352 Postings, 5974 Tage Stehaufwenn man den Kursverlauf

von gestern anschaut, ist klar das heute Richtung Süden gehen wird.  

01.09.09 14:10

2684 Postings, 6149 Tage Schalke17vll.

haben ja die amis noch was in der Wundertüte und blasen den kurs heut nochmal höher  

01.09.09 14:13

269 Postings, 5836 Tage Freshjive78...

Kursverlauf? Bei normalen Aktienverlauf vielleicht... aber nicht bei AIG, WAMQ, Freddie und Co...  

01.09.09 14:42

10991 Postings, 8849 Tage andyy0,178 wird in usa gehandelt aktuell

01.09.09 14:42

369 Postings, 5868 Tage andriashallo zusammen

01.09.09 15:05
1

2684 Postings, 6149 Tage Schalke17lehmann

geht wieder hoch  

01.09.09 15:24

369 Postings, 5868 Tage andriaswie stehts in ami land

01.09.09 15:25

37 Postings, 5835 Tage Mollek666noch nicht eröffnet

01.09.09 15:27

476 Postings, 5979 Tage Maggo99Mollek......

bitte nicht vergessen.......dein Link zeigt ca 15 min Zeitverzögert die Kurse an.....  

01.09.09 15:29

37 Postings, 5835 Tage Mollek666stimmt ;-)

aber nur OTC NYSE ist RT

wo kriegt mann OTC RT her???  

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